[Razorback Dave]

So I slipped a few M&Ms into the jowls of my English Bull Dog this morning while he was sleeping. When he woke up he kind of smacked his lips, smiled and said to me "Its gonna be a good day Tater". He calls me Tater.
It actually was a good day. I got my trailer back from servicing all shiney and new looking. Also got down with the clutch removal thing.
Here are a few pics and some words.
These are the parts I pulled of to get at the clutch. The two engine covers are held in place only by plastic pop rivets.

Bare Clutch. Im gonna wrap both header pipes.

Used a 8mmx90mm bolt from the Hardware store to split the secondary plates and loosen the belt.

Thats the inner plate. Those three slots in the plate match up with the Dogs on that Cog. Rotating that plate, back and forth, on the Cog made that Clanging sound you get when starting out in gear.

Last but not least, the center bolt that holds the secondary on the shaft. My My My what a twisted character. Can you see it?

The bolt looks like it was torqued.

 

[dieselpowered]

Yes that bolt definitely looks twisted, almost warped. I can't imagine that is how that bolt should look.

Thanks for the pictures...any pictures of the original OEM belt? Also, what are the specs on the belt tension? What are your plans for getting it back to spec? Did you purchase a belt deflection tool?

 

[Deagon Kennels]

I think Adam (///AIRDAM) has some bolts made by ARP to solve the bolt issues.

 

[LBR]

That cog is what's referred to as the helix......the quad 650 helix ramps up quicker than the quad 800 does....can you please get the part # off of it?.....I want to see if it matches a quad 650 or 800,,,,,,or if it is an entirely new one specific to Commander.....Lance

 

[Razorback Dave]

@Michael,
I just picked up the new belt at the dealer yesterday. Will do a measure with precision micrometer on both and snap a pic for ya. Im removing the primary this morning as well so will take a pic of that too.
As far as the deflection tool, it was very easy to just take the belt off by hand. No real muscle involved either. Once those plates are seperated its a snap.
I think any "spec" is out the window Mike. My primary will be a modded CV Tech clutch and the secondarys are on their way to Adam @Airdam for some modding as well. As far as I know, its just put everything back together, pop the belt on and ride.
@Deagon,
Thanks Man, that is exactly what I wanted to hear. That bolt is actually way more twisted in real life than what you see in the pic. It looks like it was torqued upon removal or perhaps was torqued upon installation. Cant really know for sure.
@Lance,
Thanks Lance, you are always a wealth of information. I will definately pull the Helix and check for pt#s for ya.

Thanks
Dave

 

[LBR]

@ Michael....really is no belt deflection tool nor belt tension specs for the BRP CVTs.....how one determines if a used belt is reuseable is miking the width of it @ the cord level of the belt profile in the "V" part of it.....specs are in the tech manual.......Lance

 

[Razorback Dave]

Okay Hi,
Well I just went ahead and removed the primary clutch. Didnt take a pic . It was so simple and easy. Just use a 19mm socket. I again used the electric torque wrench. My friend says it is a torque wrench so i guess it is. Anyway it comes off counter clockwise like normal. When the bolt was all the way out the primary just kind of extended out with the spring pressure. Not that much at all really. I put the wrench down and grabbed the primary off the shaft.
Next was the bearing. It wasnt much at all really. I just rotated it until it started sliding off the shaft. At this point I was watching for the little springs and caps everyone is talking about and when i saw them i just pinched them with my other hand and slid the bearing off. Now it was easy to remove the springs and put them somewhere safe. Now im ready and waiting for the primary and the reworked secondaries.
Below are a few pics of the belts and Ill try to accurately explain a few measurements. I dont have the specs handy so if someone can tell me if its in spec or not would be appreciated.
The old belt on the right is actually thicker by about .034.
The new belt is more flexible than the old belt.

The next picture tries to show the worn portion of the belt. The belt is a V of course. The top being the wide part of the V is the same measure on both belts. The bottom narrow part is .031 more narrow on the old belt. To me that would indicate the wear. .031 in 86 miles would indicate to me ALOT of wear going on.
Again the old belt on the right.

There was rubber caked up on the inside of the clutch housing but only on the secondary side not on the primary side.
Oh Lance I almost forgot your question--The Helix has a number stamped on it , 280470. Thats the only id anywhere on the helix.

 

[LBR]

Thanx for that part # Dave....as per my post above, you measure the belt width of the "V" exactly at the cord area....this determines if a belt is usable or not.......but you definately burnt it from the sounds of your observations.....can post that measurement tomorrow night....and that will be for the Rotax 800 belt tho.....Lance

 

[///AIRDAM]

hey guys that bolt is NOT normal for a bolt, but it is normal to see coming out of your machine. can-am bolts stretch and break, terribly, like alot more than you can imagine. tthey built their bolts as tension bolts, which are designed to stretch and hold tension on the clutch to keep the clutch swedged on the shafts, and the bolts stretch terribly. i sent a good bolt to ARP and they tole me that these bolts are tension bolts, made to stretch, only meant to be torqued once, and thrown away. i had them make me up the primary and secondary bolts in grade 13. no more stretch, and no more broken bolts. i have seen TONS of the bolts break off and sent the clutch through the clutch cover. the guys here in the south that race can-amks in the mud bogs and such are always breaking the bolts. i myself have tapped 3 cranks and re-threaded them to get the old primary bolt out of the crank. not fun guys not fun!

i have the primary and secondary bolts, in grade 12.9, that will not stretch and NOT break, for $30. the primary and secondary set together.

 

[///AIRDAM]

also, the commander helix is different that the 800ATV and 650ATV helix. the 650 helix everybody referrs to has longer ramp angles on the helix which hold you in lower gear longer by increasing the ramp angles of the helix it increases the springs pre-tension as your clutch upshifts so that is is compounding the springs rate, which holds you in lower gear longer, and gives you a faster backshift when you let out of the throttle.

 

[wingshooter]

Razorback Dave
Can you Clarify what belt you ended up with, is it the same one as the outlander?

 

[Odyknuck]

Yea I am also not happy with the belt wear. 80 miles and mine is shot. Takes about 5000 RPM to get 30 MPH in high range.

 

[dieselpowered]

Interesting, like the Teryx, I would have thought that the belt would have a specific tension it should be set at (learn something new everyday)

So then is this premature belt wearing due to a slipping belt or something else?

 

[Razorback Dave]

@Wingshooter,
Yes, its the same Part # so i would imagine there is no difference.
Im still going to order the Highlifter GX3 belt today and use it when I get my Clutches back from Adam @///Airdam.
@Odyknuck,
I will definately let you know the diff when i get this Airdam clutch going. Im going to get a Dyno run going next week and see just what a Clutch,Exhaust and Chip can do for the Commander.
@Adam/AIRDAM,
Thanks for all your help and information. I am completely sold on you and your company. I'll be calling you on the Bolts and a couple questions Tuesday. My secondary Clutch Halves are due at your Shop on Tuesday.

 

[kleinwild]

@Wingshooter,
Yes, its the same Part # so i would imagine there is no difference.
Im still going to order the Highlifter GX3 belt today and use it when I get my Clutches back from Adam @///Airdam.
@Odyknuck,
I will definately let you know the diff when i get this Airdam clutch going. Im going to get a Dyno run going next week and see just what a Clutch,Exhaust and Chip can do for the Commander.
@Adam/AIRDAM,
Thanks for all your help and information. I am completely sold on you and your company. I'll be calling you on the Bolts and a couple questions Tuesday. My secondary Clutch Halves are due at your Shop on Tuesday.

If you think your sold on him now just wait till you get your bike back going. I won again this weekend in Mississippi with my ///Airdam clutches!

 

[///AIRDAM]

the commanders with the CVtech are MEAN!!! you will not regret it sir!

 

[Odyknuck]

Adam, Setting a side the fact you sell clutch's are you saying that with out using your clutch the Commander owners could go thru a belt every 100 or so miles. I mean I just spent over $15,000.00 on a machine that I did not expect to need do this. I am not looking for better performance only longivity.

 

[///AIRDAM]

no sir you do not have to go thru a belt every 100 miles. all BS aside, man to man, your machine can get 1000 miles out of a belt, but you will have to baby the machine. if you ride it hard, like most everyone wants to do, you will go thru belts. the commanders are powerful, and people buy them and enjoy the power and ride them hard. that power, along with the design of the clutch, will continually eat belts for the life of the machine if you ride it hard. if you are an easy going guy then you will likely not have any problems. you ride it hard in and out of the throttle continually, and it will chew up belts regularly. i know a guy in texas who is mud racing his, and has already been thru 6 belts and has only had his machine 7 weeks. you do the math, $180 belts x 5 and you could have already paid for a clutch that does not eat belts, and gives more performance gains.

 

[LBR]

also, the commander helix is different that the 800ATV and 650ATV helix. the 650 helix everybody referrs to has longer ramp angles on the helix which hold you in lower gear longer by increasing the ramp angles of the helix it increases the springs pre-tension as your clutch upshifts so that is is compounding the springs rate, which holds you in lower gear longer, and gives you a faster backshift when you let out of the throttle.

Adam...thanx for that helix info....I assume that you have physically compared the Commander helix to, say, an 800 helix......I am wondering about the steepness of the lobe angles....

When I did my Rhino Rotax engine swap, I automatically removed the 800 helix and installed a new 650 one that I had lightly filed on the 3 points....when I compared the 2, I noticed that the 650 had a steeper angled (degree) inclined of the 3 lobes,,,,thus throwing the sheave half into the belt quicker and harder than an 800 helix would at a given RPM....my reasoning was to put more bite on the belt at engagement and above to try and help from burning the belt....it also develops more heat as a by-product of the harder belt pinch, but I chose the lesser of the 2 evils....

If this Commander helix is ramped the same or a less-steep angle that an 800 helix, then I may look into using a 650 like I did on my Rhino....alot better than burning belts IMO

And my Rhino primary is getting fairly worn where the spider works back and forth on the other half, so I could use another primary.....does it look feasible to get one of your primarys for the Commander and then use the stock Commander primary on my Rhino (from a 2006 Outlander)?....Lance

 

[Odyknuck]

no sir you do not have to go thru a belt every 100 miles. all BS aside, man to man, your machine can get 1000 miles out of a belt, but you will have to baby the machine. if you ride it hard, like most everyone wants to do, you will go thru belts. the commanders are powerful, and people buy them and enjoy the power and ride them hard. that power, along with the design of the clutch, will continually eat belts for the life of the machine if you ride it hard. if you are an easy going guy then you will likely not have any problems. you ride it hard in and out of the throttle continually, and it will chew up belts regularly. i know a guy in texas who is mud racing his, and has already been thru 6 belts and has only had his machine 7 weeks. you do the math, $180 belts x 5 and you could have already paid for a clutch that does not eat belts, and gives more performance gains.

Thank you for your Cander. I do ride agressively in the trails however I don't feel that I have been that hard on it and yet at 80 miles I need a new belt. I will say that were I ride there are a lot of steep hills and they do put a heavy load on any machine. I would prefer not to have to use the low range all the time as suggested in the manual however it would appear with the stock setup I may have to. I may end up purchasing one of your clutchs in the future, however for right now the OEM will have to do. So in your opinion is the Highlifter belt is the way to go in lieu of the OEM?